Write-up by CM of discussion on 5 June 2008.

Several new people attended, including representatives from Exeter Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Exeter University Friends of Palestine. Members of another Exeter socialists discussion group also came. All were warmly welcomed:

C[or K?]O, DM, JX, MH, KX, MR, FAT, MHy, DP, GB, PH, CM

DP spoke to the paper he had prepared.

Discussion

FAT: What is DP’s own definition of antisemitism? – he has criticised others’ definitions.

DP: The wikipedia definition is close, but doesn’t pick up on the world conspiracy side. There are various components, for example, it was used by the police in Czarist Russia to cause a distraction by whipping up feelings against a convenient target group.

FAT: I would go further than believing in conspiracy theories and say antisemitism is a form of racism, which means a prejudice based on the belief that a group is ‘naturally’ a certain way, and I deplore that [more than more general kinds of discrimination].

CM: Surely it’s impossible to come up with a single definition of something with a 2000 year history?

DP: Tony Gosling encourages people to hate Jews. This prejudice is deeply engrained amongst fascist writers.

MHy: There are two aspects: firstly, the persistence of antisemitism over centuries, attempts at integration didn’t save them, and that it was uniquely vicious and persistent, hence the idea that only the establishment of Israel will protect them; secondly, are they antisemitic to get at the home of the Jews, and is their agenda consciously or not consciously antisemitic? How can we distinguish? It’s a can of worms, but it is illegitimate and must be opposed.

FAT: The most important question is how, in a group you deal with those you disagree with. In PSC, antisemitism and racism of any kind are against the declared aims. The problem is that people who believe in this conspiracy theory [think they have common cause with PSC and] are drawn to us. The question is, how do we deal with that?

DP: I have come across a similar problem in anti-capitalism groups and elsewhere. It [being a problem] depends how genuine they are; if they are confused we put them right – but it’s a problem if they’re on the platform.

FAT: Everyone in PSC is ‘on the platform’, speaking to the public, so anyone like that is a problem. PSC attracts people who are antisemitic, and we also ger pro-Zionist infiltrators. By my definition, antisemitism is a form of discrimination, the problem of discrimination against Jewish people, but they’ve got to be not just discussing what Jews were doing in the past, it’s got to be about what is supposedly ‘in their blood’. It’s partly their religion but Jews are also seen as an ethnic group, and Zionism brings in politics too. In my view you choose your ideology and I would say your religion too, and so all that is fair to discuss and argue about, but you don’t choose your blood or your skin. Does suggesting that Arabs have a victim mentality make one anti-Palestinian? No, I don’t think so. The solution involves finding out what they are saying.

DP: according to Tony Greenstein, if you are someone whose home has been destroyed, your family members killed, it is fairly understandable that you would be prejudiced.

MHy: Even so they should be pulled back.

CM: If it’s ‘understandable’ for those actually suffering to be prejudiced against Jews as their enemies, perhaps it’s also ‘understandable’ for PSC supporters or other sympathisers with the plight of Palestinians – especially if they feel very deeply the injustice and awfulness of the unequal struggle – to be anti-Zionist, anti- Israeli politics, and hence antisemitic. This could be the cause of the ‘problem’ PSC has to deal with.

JX: I didn’t have much knowledge about this subject so this has been interesting. But there are precedents, where war crimes have been used to justify oppression. After WWI Germany starved. More Germans died than during the War itself. This is a breeding ground for all those ideologies. It hides the complicity of the Allies. How to overcome it? The working class is the only force that can provide unity against the State and the bourgeoisie, and end racism and antisemitism. The working class is an international force, and [whilst one can] understand demands for Israeli and Palestinian States, it is against all Nation States.

DM: Palestine is beyond engaging in the working class because the opportunity to work has been taken from them, blocked. This is a dilemma.

GB: DP raised important points. The crucial thing is to relate to humanity on human terms. Israel used to ‘include’ and welcome the Palestinians when it used them as cheap labour; now they seek cheap labour from elsewhere. How can we relate to a struggle when people are oppressed on national lines? How can we draw movements together, as was done in South Africa? How can we relate them to socialism? Nationalism arose with capitalism. We have to create and recognise our common humanity. To say that any attack on Israel is an attack on Jews is of course nonsense: there are more Jews outside Israel than inside. Historically, Russian Jews went to Israel because they really wanted to go to America, and that might be a step on the way. Everyone wanted to get out of Russia. The idea is as JX said, to have no States; the next best thing is secular States, but still with the problem of being a capitalist State. The question is, how do people come into the struggle? We cannot impose socialism as a solution. We can easily make socialism irrelevant.

KX: The question of antisemitism is one that has engaged the working class. Given the Jews were oppressed, so arguably they have a right to form their own State; that was the argument of the Bund in the early 20C. The working class has always addressed forms of racism because they are destructive of the working class. There is no country for the working class. In Germany the working class addressed antisemitism as the ‘Jewish question’. This was used [by the ruling class] to divide the working class and maintain its rule. The way to fight against that is with working class solidarity, as it did in Russia, defending Jews against the pogroms in the 19 th and 20 th C. The Bund separated the issue on racial lines. It was a world movement at the time. For communists the answer has already been given [by JX?]. During WWII the biggest campaign against the deportation of Jews was by the Dutch workers in 1943. In Vichy France the workers put up ‘hide Jews’ posters. Is the internationalist position impractical today? But there is a working class in Palestine because there was a strike by the teachers. It is a terrible situation, with a host of ‘security’ organisations, Hamas being one. Supporting the State equals supporting the bourgeoisie. Working class solidarity has worked in the past.

DM: It (working class solidarity) happens now but in Palestine is is not ossible as we have here – they are not as privileged because of the human rights violations. Racism is wrong. There is no chance of uniting with the Israeli working class. What can we do now? Find a solution amongst people outside.

JX: It is difficult to watch the misery comrades are undergoing.

DM: We (Friends of Palestine) are calling for justice and an end to what is happening to Palestinians.

JX: The only way to do that is to organise to get rid of capitalism, address the dynamic of the Palestinian and Israeli working class – the latter have problems currently too with very high levels of unemployment.

DM: Must raise awareness.

FAT: JX and DM have good points. JX gives solutions. DM points to the injustice. Need to look at it form a human point of view, as human injustice. Is this right or not? There are different ways of achieving resolution. We have to challenge anyone who is antisemitic. There has to be a more direct route, this can’t wait.

CM: The question is, who does FAT and PSC believe can deliver this ‘resolution’? If campaigning is addressed at decision makers, who are part of and support the capitalist system and Nation States, are they going to be willing to deliver any solution other than within their own terms? Simply spreading awareness amongst ordinary people of the issue of the suffering and unequal struggle of the Palestinians risks feeding into antisemitism: taking one side rather than another, blaming the Israelis, the Zionists, and by extension the Jews: the Jewish lobby in America in particular, must bring that risk, and may bring those newly aware of the issue into contact with the conspiracy theorists and those who enjoy manipulating people’s opinions. There is the danger of leading people into participating in discrimination generally, which is rife, and is encouraged, whether intentionally or inadvertently, because ‘divide and rule’ is so useful for hindering working class solidarity. Surely, we come back to the position that the only solution is to get rid of capitalism?

MH: There is a dilemma. Fighting for ‘justice’ – humanitarianism. Israeli and Palestinian daily life is total barbarism. To claim justice is an understatement, is hiding something. We need to go to the root of the problem for justice or humanity. This is an illustration of the impasse of humanity. The Jews were the victims of the barbaric rule of the Nazis. Only by setting up their own State can they defend their right to existence – and they create a monster State, with higher walls than the Iron Curtain, where Guantanamo is Paradise in comparison. This pretext is no way out, because we have to look to the future. If the Palestinians were to get their own State it will turn into something worse. This is not an answer. More barbarism means only war. The suggestion that there are no workers I understand but this is not the full reality. The Jewish State was based on pogroms. There are refugee camps in the Occupied West Bank, in Jordan, Eypt, the Gulf States. Palestinians can’t sell their labour power, and develop a Nationalist perspective – or an internationalist perspective – there is no other in the class struggle. In Egypt textile workers struggle, especially women, so the struggle is going on 2-3 hours away from the Gaza Strip. In the Persian Gulf worker struggles go on, they waged the class war before there was any other war. There are hunger riots in 40 countries – a revolt. Forty years ago the workers in the USA were bourgeoisified, now they identify with being workers because of the sub-prime problem. Peripheral countries are joining thee struggle with those in industrialised developed countries. Capitalism’s barbarc solution is to get workers to fight each other.

CM as Chair invited contributions from those who hadn’t yet spoken.

PH: I am confused about the Jewish academic boycott being seen as a ‘good thing’, which troubles me because I see the danger of people being blamed for what their government does.

CO: It is confusing, yes. I have been a guide in Berlin for walking tours, showing people historic sites of Jewish life in Berlin to Jewish people and found that a great privilege, watching their catharsis. Showing the Holocaust Memorial. These people are mostly very progressive, don’t see themselves as victims. But I don’t know much about the Israeli-Palestine situation.

MR: My knowledge of this was nil; this has sparked some interest.

DP to wind up: Thank you to everyone for coming. It has been interesting to discuss the class struggle and issues presented in context of something that came up due to a dispute at Exeter University concerning Zionism: the State being based on your religion, which no socialist can accept. Antisemitism was part of the failed revolution in Germany in 1848, when it was said ‘the Free Masons did it’, and there was a feudal reaction to even bourgeois progressive change and fought for that reason. My personal view is that the [next] best thing would be a One State – or federation of socialist states. On the Israeli working class, It’s interesting to look at Labour Net on the Israeli-Palestine issue – not related to the Israeli TU movement, which is dreadful, not an organisation of Israeli workers themselves, Nasref Workers Advice Centre, most Israeli TUs take the view that Israel is a Jewish State, with Palestinians having no place in it.

FAT: For those who want to know more about PSC, there is a leaflet on our web site: www.exeterpsc.org.uk.

JX: Announcement: Exeter Discussion Group is meeting on 25 June 6.30 at the Community Centre to discuss ‘What is Imperialism?’

CM: Next Exeter Socialists meeting: we don’t have a topic, any suggestions?

MH: How about ‘How can workers in the industrial centres work with workers in the developing world?’

KX: Will lead that, work permitting.

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